S2 E3 A rich conversation with Gabriel Salomão of Lar Montessori in Brazil

Today I have an amazing conversation to share with Gabriel Salomão of Lar Montessori in Brazil. His native language is Portuguese and yet speaks so eloquently, gently and respectfully about the Montessori approach. I always learn something from our conversations and am so happy to be able to share this conversation with you on the podcast today.

Lar Montessori: Website / Instagram / Facebook / YouTube

Gabriel works with families and schools in Brazil and abroad, including training Montessori educators. He went to Montessori school himself until he was 14 and came back to Montessori when he was graduating in Literature in search of tools to become a better teacher. "One night, I found a small little book by Maria Montessori online and started to read, without pretensions. When I finished, it was dawn, and my life was transformed."

Quotes
- Gabriel asked a child "What do you want to be when you grow up?" The child responded, "An adult."
- "To obey is hard, it's a skill and you learn that."
- "Step into the wilderness of silence"
- "Love is very much silent"

Links from the episode

• Dignity: a new gift for children
• 8 principles of silent education
• Muriel Dwyers "A Path for the Exploration of Any Language Leading to Writing and Reading"
• Instagram @whatdaddid
• Join our free book launch zoom party for The Montessori Baby on 11 May at 11am ET!

Listener question

Hi, Simone! I want to thank you so much for this podcast & your book. It has helped me immensely in my personal interactions with my 20-month old and I have already seen a change in her demeanour at home.

My question is regarding my spouse. He tells me to ""lead the way"" indicating that he wants me to learn all I can to incorporate Montessori principles at home. He is supportive in my research, but rarely listens to parts of your podcast that I share or reads blog posts that I recommend for him. He often interrupts our daughter's activities that I spend time planning, or constantly ""quizzes"" her to see what she has learned. He is well-intentioned and loves her so much. How do I gently guide him, or really guide all of our family, to let her lead and stop interrupting her or constantly asking her questions?

Thank you so much for helping me in this situation!

Submit your listener question here

Transcript

Simone Davies: 0:11

Hi everyone, Simone Davies here and welcome back to the Montessori Notebook podcast. This is episode three of season two. And today I'm in conversation with Gabriel from Lar Montessori. The way he speaks about Montessori you wait to hear, it's just beautiful. And with his calm and he's very articulate approach. I'm not surprised that he has the biggest platform in Brazil. And so we talked about how he ended up coming back to Montessori, his love of research, we talk about preparing for literacy in a Montessori way, and a whole lot more. So I think you are going to get a lot out of it no matter where you are on your Montessori journey. And before we get to my conversation with Gabriel, today, I wanted to talk to you about time, because so many people say to me, yeah, Montessori sounds great, but it takes so much time to have your child help you cook, or it takes so much time to repair activities, and then sometimes they're not even interested. Or it's really hard to be patient and ask gently for them to put their shoes on. And how many more times before you end up not being very Montessori about it at all. So I wanted to question does it actually take more time to apply a Montessori approach. And when I sat down to think about it, I actually don't think it took me more time. I mean, yes, it is going to go a little slower when they're younger. And that, for example, they're learning to dress themselves. But in the long run, they are then capable of doing so much more from such a young age. And for me, I just felt like I enjoyed them having time to hang out with my kids. And they were able to help me with so many things that they didn't even feel like were chores, they were helping me cook, and lately they've been cooking for me. They put away their washing, they made their own lunches from quite a young age, they pack their own sports bag and put their dirty clothes in the laundry basket, putting their own toys away. And of course, they didn't want to cook with me every day. But they were able to help me set the table when I needed some help. Or from the time they were at their monastery playgroup they take their plate to the kitchen, and little things like that. So I think that the time that you invest in the early years, I mean, you're getting them dressed anyway. So it doesn't take much longer to slow down and let them do as much as they can. I also think that when we are observing our children, we start to see that we don't actually need to do so much. Because we don't have to be the one that's entertaining them or finding something for them to do. So when I started with Montessori, Emma was a baby. And I found I had so much more time than the way that I dealt with Oliver. So when there were two of them were getting from the supermarket. And I'd lay her on a little mat on the floor in the kitchen with a couple of simple things for her to explore. And she'd be concentrating on those or watching us and I talked to her if she made some sounds to tell her what I was doing, as I unpacked the groceries, and then all of our he would be about like one and a half or two. And he's helping himself to get a snack and or helping me maybe to unpack the groceries. And when I compare that to when Oliver was Baby, I was trying to get everything done when he was napping, so then I could play with him and make him laugh and just keep him busy all the time. And when I started applying the Montessori approach, I saw that it was okay for them to have time without someone doing a constant running commentary, or me teaching them all the time. And I could observe them and see what they were both interested in, like stepping back until they may be needed some help, or even letting them struggle a little bit. So when they mastered themselves, you know, they're so pleased. And there's that brilliant Montessori quote, like never help a child with the task of which he feels he can succeed. So you also know how long it takes to convince a child to get out the door. And when we slow down and engage them in the process. It's definitely less stressful. And we haven't spent all that time nagging our kids to get ready or helping them calm down if they've got frustrated. And so that time that we've spent being respectful means that it can actually take less time in those daily battles. So of course, there are going to be some times when there are meltdowns, even applying the Montessori principles. But when we prepare that child ahead of time, and we involve them, it can go so much smoother most of the time. And another thing that I think definitely saved me time was rotating toys. So back then when my kids were small, I mean, now they're 2019. I not started my Montessori training, but I was learning about it from our Montessori playgroup and I chose Tuesday is the day that I had rotate some of their things. And it was such a good investment of my time because it see things on the shelf that they hadn't seen for a while and they'd be completely engaged and they got such good use out of their activities as well. And then you're not buying so much stuff, which is also so important. And nowadays, I tell parents, not just to pick a day of the week to change toys, but to change them when you observe that they aren't interested in something or they you start to see maybe that they're developing a new interest in something and I certainly didn't have any perfect storage cupboards or whatever. Just boxes in a cupboard, which I dig through to find something that I thought they're not seen in a while, or that they were starting to get interested in. If you're short of time, it's also quite interesting to do an inventory of how we spend our time. I mean, I do think it's got a lot to do with our choices like we are actually the ones who are choosing to spend our time each day. So if you have time to scrolling Instagram, you likely have time to do one, sorry. And so we might need to just make some conscious choices, definitely to find time to fill up your own cup, doing things you like, and also to be present with our children and maybe just being less overscheduled in general. And then, I know for those of you with more than one child, you tend to feel like life gets busier, and there's even less time. And then I like to say, you've actually got like your own mini Montessori classroom in your home with like the older children being able to model for the younger ones. And in general, you see the younger ones picking things up so quickly from their older siblings. Parents, like who've had twins who've come into my classes have said that if it weren't for Montessori, it would have been so much harder. Like having two children who could be more independent and self directed was just so helpful. And even for my own children, they were 16 months apart. And it really helped me to like learning not to, that I had to do everything for them. And in fact, not helping them if I was doing everything for them. And just learning to step in. And just to help that a little bit and then sit back again. And people might also think that if you're working you can't do one, sorry, because you don't have enough time. And then Okay, go back to season one where I spoke to trainer about working and implementing Montessori, I think it was Episode Two of season one. And she's such a good example of this. And personally, I've also been working full time and being a full time mom, and you can make it work. But I'm working, I'm working and when I with the kids, it's phones away and being totally there. If it's completely new, then I don't suggest people start with Montessori when they're tired at the end of a busy work day. But like you could start on the weekend, when you might have more time to get the kids to help you cook. And the more you practice, the more automatic it becomes. And the more you'll notice that the whole family is working together and enjoying each other's company a lot. And of course, there's going to be people who are working two jobs to make ends meet. And then you're just like trying to get food on the table. So I know I'm speaking from a place of privilege, when I say all these things, but I think for most people listening, you'll find that the time that you put into preparing yourselves and the environment and taking the time to teach the skills to get them involved, you'll find you save so much more time. And more importantly, it's a more joyful place to parent from helping these children to grow. So I hope that helps if you are wondering if you need lots of time for Montessori. And now it's time for my conversation with Gabriel. So enjoy. And I'll be back as usual after our conversation to answer another listener question. Hi, everyone, Simone here and I'm really excited to be doing this podcast today with my friend Gabriel in Brazil, from Lar Montessori. Welcome to the podcast. Gabriel

Gabriel: 8:01

Thank you. Thank you very much. It's very nice to be here. Yeah, I'm

Simone Davies: 8:05

so happy to get to introduce you to everyone because I know that you went to Montessori, yourself read child from two to 14 years old. And then when you had finished your university studies and came to teach literature and grammar to high school students who were like, Oh, actually, how can I be a better teacher and you picked up someone storybooks. And it was, you know, Dawn before you'd finished reading like the next one storybook, and you're actually not a Montessori teacher, but a Montessori researcher. And so I'd really love to get a lot of your perspectives about the Montessori approach. But I also know that you're passionate about helping parents and adults to understand the Montessori principles and also put them into practice in their own lives. So there's so many places that I'd love to go. But first of all, your love of research. I mean, that's something quite special. I saw a picture that you taken and you had three or four different versions of books out comparing Montessori philosophies. This one in particular was how she described presenting activities at different stages. So how did you come to love research?

Gabriel: 9:08

I think I was stealing in the mortuary school when that happened. The adolescent program we had at the school a study that was not completely similar to what Dr. Matura describes in the art calendar. But we did have a lot of research to do. And I enjoyed that very much. When I went to high school. We didn't have that we had lessons and homework and that's it was a very conventional high school. I missed that. And when I went to university, from the first day, I saw people all around me doing what I did at the Monster School, they were going to the library and taking books and taking notes and having ideas and organizing that. And at first I didn't want to go two months it it was not something in my mind. I went Did you study Shakespeare and poetry and literature. But research was always something I wanted to do that. And what I love about research is to find patterns and change in patterns through history. We learned that in the beginning of the university with linguistics, and that has been a passion to this day.

Simone Davies: 10:23

Yeah, that's so interesting. And what I love is that you bring research into a way that the ordinary people can understand it, you know, you're not using all of this difficult to ignore liturgy and you actually have Lar Montessori, you set it up. And it's the biggest platform in Brazil to help mostly parents, right, but also educators understand the Montessori approach

Gabriel: 10:42

nowadays. Parents mostly Yeah, for sure, if you think in absolute numbers, but I think 90 or more than 90% of schools in Brazil, Montessori schools use live on site, in one way or another. So I'm grateful to be able to work with both publics. And yeah, I like to do research entries like that. I don't think research for researchers sake is useful. I think it has to be translated into terms that other people can understand and use and change, and be creative with what we find in research. It's very, it's a huge privilege to be able to spend my time doing research. And I'm not even in a university environment right now. So it's, it's that kind of joyful obligation to translate that into understandable words.

Simone Davies: 11:36

So one of the things that parents always ask me when they first get to know the Montessori approach, and even later, it's just a really difficult thing, particularly if you've had a more traditional upbringing, is this addiction almost to rewards and punishments, it's really hard for them to switch for like, how's my child ever going to learn to do something for themselves, if I don't bribe them or reward them in some way, and my child doesn't want to do because it can be also that you're applying the Montessori principles at home, but the child goes traditional school, and they have to do homework and things. So how are we possibly going to get rid of rewards and punishments. And I know that you kind of say, Well, if you treat the child differently, and you first prepare the environment, and then you show them little by little how to use that environment, and then you let them do the things for themselves, and you'd step back a little bit, then you start to see this concentration, developing this self control developing and like executive functioning skills of them using their brain. So I wondered if you could talk to that same Yeah. So to show parents how they can do it in maybe a different way?

Gabriel: 12:40

Sure. It, it depends on the plane of development. Because sometimes we discover a monster and the child is already seven years old. So it really depends on on the plane of development. If we are talking about children from zero to five or six years old, it's the environment, it's it's mostly the environment, if we have a little bit off here to prepared, we don't need to have it perfect before we begin. And we do not want to switch everything in a single night. Because the child won't enjoy to wake up in a different house altogether. So if we switch the environment, little by little, to a place where the child really can leave there and do things as a, not as an adult person would do. But as a dignified person would do without needing to ask for help all the time or permission all the time, this child will start to show us that she wants to be independent. And I always say she when I talk about a child, because in Portuguese, it's our Korean, so it's feminine. So the child will want to do things by herself. And we'll find that our difficulty is to allow the time for the child to do it, because she is not going to do it for the result for the product, she's going to do it for the process. And for a result that is invisible to us. She is doing that to develop herself and to become more fully human. And we have to allow time for that. So I do believe that one of the hardest things for us to do is to develop patients, as parents so that we become able to wait and observe and wait a little bit more and sometimes wait a little bit more. But when the child is older, and they have homework, for example, homework is a hard thing, isn't it? Because it should be interesting. It could be interesting, and it's not. Yeah. So I think one possible role that we can play us as parents is to make that interesting. And making homework interesting usually means making homework longer. And because we think homeworks terrible, we want to make a choice. But if we try to make shorter, we make it even less interesting because then it's just answering questions and answering questions is not interesting. discovering things, testing things, experimenting is very interesting and a little bit messy. But with older children, that's what we ought to do. Right now, my child is in online learning here in Brazil because of the pandemics. And what usually happens is that his school day, goes much longer than the school day, because we spend a few hours trying things out, which will take much shorter if he just answered stuff. So it's different for each age at zero to six, I think it's much more independence and patience. But from six to 12, which would be the second plane, it's trying to make things intellectually fascinating for the child.

Simone Davies: 15:59

And it's trusting in the child that they're going to want to learn if it's interesting, as opposed to us having to force this information in in the way that we will maybe board up ourselves, we have

Gabriel: 16:08

to remember they are human beings, don't we, I mean, everyone wants to learn things if they are interested. We love for example, Ted Talks. Because TED talks are interesting, the same subject could be presented in a much more boring way than in a TED talk. But in a TED talk, there is an effort to make everything interesting, and we enjoy that. When we have someone showing us the world, anything in the world, in a way that is fascinating, we are going to be fascinated. And the child who wants to be I remember that myself all the time, more fully human. And we have to allow the child to be human to try things out to explore things to discover to create. So yeah, trust for sure. Not in the child per se, but in the humaneness of the child.

Simone Davies: 17:05

Actually, I loved reading about you discussing giving the child dignity. It's something that I really was puzzling about as like, ah, I don't think I've actually ever thought of this together. And you gave the example of Dr. Montessori doing a nose blowing presentation. And instead of the children, you know, going okay, well, that's not very interesting, or being shameful around blowing noses and mucus, they actually all applauded, you know, because, oh, there's so much shame around nose blowing, and all that kind of thing. So yeah, giving dignity and showing them how they can do things for themselves.

Gabriel: 17:39

Yeah, in Montessori classrooms, you usually find an adult on his or her nice looking at a child at the same eye level. And that's symbolic. At the same time, that's practical, because that adult is diminishing him or herself so that the child can grow. And Montessori would compare that to I think, I Christ, a Christian metaphor. I think she says Someone has to diminish for the order to grow. And we are so big. And we are so used to be big tube important. We are surrounded by ideology, which says that being successful and famous and huge is very important. And we forget that being small, is to be in the beginning of everything. So if it was not for the child, nothing would exist. The child is the most important thing in human world in human civilization. And we forget that we think presidents are the most important people or billionaires or diplomats or scientists, and they are not, they are not they may be the second, the third, the fourth most important people, the child is the most important people in the world. And I think that's First of all, a spiritual realization that we have to have. And second, it's also a practical realization, when we do small changes in environment is small changes in our behavior. And also big changes in environment and behavior later, so that that child can feel normal can feel very important, not as to become snobbish or anything like that. Just very important as a human being not more important than any other child are more important than any other person in general, but never less than always equal to. I think that's that's dignity for the child, to not feel ashamed to be a child. There are so many children who say to us, when I become a person I want to do and come on here. As a person already, then they really don't know that. Nobody told them that they are people. They think they are children. And we have to have places and people and environments and time for those small people to be people.

Simone Davies: 20:15

I love that. Because how many times do we say to young children? What do you want to be when you grow up as if like, this isn't already their life in their present moment in their reality? Ah, that's gonna change everything. Okay, we're going to all try and take that out of our vocabulary and let each child just, you know, have the ability and dignity from, you know, as the child as well.

Gabriel: 20:35

Yeah. And the most interesting answer I heard from a child, he, I think he was three years old. I worked with him in environment. And I asked once for him before I learned that question was an artist. I asked him, What do you want to be when you grow up? And he said, an adult? And yes, sure. It is. But I realized just a little bit later, that the question itself is wrong. He is something right now isn't.

Simone Davies: 21:07

He is something right now. But he's so true. I'm just going to be an adult when I grow up. That's all the differences. I'm now just a small body, and I'll just be the big body. perfectly accurate. Yeah, the simple reality of a child. I love it. I think also, it makes me think of how we view obedience differently as well from an adult perspective and a child's perspective. And Dr. Montessori writes about the levels of obedience. And I think that that's something that parents could really learn from, because I think we always think particularly with this youngest child, like, Why don't they listen to me, and they don't even have the ability to necessarily comply with obedience unless it meets what they're wanting to do right now as well.

Gabriel: 21:44

Yeah, we think of obedience as a moral characteristic. If you are not obedient, you are doing something immoral and wrong. And it's not a question of morality, it's a skill. To obey is hard, as to cook is hard as to using Microsoft Office can be hard, it's a skill. And you'll learn that. And in the same way, we wouldn't expect a child to be able to fly a plane, when they are four years old, we should not expect a child to be able to obey when they are when a half or two years old. Because it's a skill, and the brain needs to develop certain characteristics to be able to obey, obey in is a complex stuff, you have to understand what you want to do, then you have to understand what the other person wants you to do, not only the phrase itself, but that what that person said means that she wants you to do something, you have to translate words into action, that's a skill by itself. And to obey means you have to give up your own will to understand that we will have another person suppress your real and act on the view of this other person for the time being. And children that are one year old, are not able to do that, when they are two years old, they are sometimes able to do that sometimes they are not. And well, the two they are discovering they also have wheels. So it's it's one more complication there for obedience to happen. But if they don't even know they want something, how can they understand we want something. So they need to understand what wanting something is that will come around two years ago, two years old, then they will become able a little bit later to understand we want things to be done. And they will start to obey. And that would be a first level of obedience, in which they are sometimes able to do things we ask them to do, and sometimes not able, because brain is developing, it's not developed yet. A little bit later, that you will become able to obey, but not still willing to obey, just able. So if we ask enough, if we use prizes and punishments, they will innovate out of fear, out of desire for that prize, they will innovate, but still, we don't really wanted because they're going to connect, obey in with prizes and punishments. They are not going to connect, obeying, to understand and wishing to obey. So later in life, they will still obey in exchange for prizes and punishments. And not because they understood and made critical analysis and decided to obey or because that person who is asked something is someone who should be obeyed because It's a admire herbal person. But if we still have patience at the second level of obedience when the child is able to obey but not always willing, and we try to become what we Montessori, we would call a prepared adult, an adult who has patience, an adult who is able to present the world to a child in a fascinating way. And adulthood prepares the environment in a way that the child can be free and capable with independent dependent. If we become able to do all that, and we become this prepared adult, and we wait just a little bit more, this child is going to be willing to obey even more, she's going to be anxious to obey, because obeying is a skill. And children like to practice skills. So when they come to this level, when they are able to hear us and try to do what we asked them to do, and this skill is really developed, they want to practice it. And if we are adults who are deserving of obedience, if we are admirable adults, they want to obey us. That doesn't last forever. When they are seven or eight, they stop obeying again, because they want to analyze what we asked them to do, all over again, under critical lens and analytical lens. But up to four, or five or six years old, what happens is their district levels at first the child is unable to obey or barely able to evade. Second, they are able but not always willing to obey. And then the third, if we are deserving of that, they become willing and anxious. And obedience becomes delightful to them.

Simone Davies: 26:58

And not to leave parents hanging. But once they get to seven or eight, then you can activate the reasoning mind why it's important for them to you know, leaving your house, why we need to put our things away so that we can live in our family together, respecting that they have a need for big space, and might be messy in the moment, but that it will be packed away so that everyone can appreciate the spaces and things like that as well. But I think that's really helpful to know, it's not that your child is trying to wind you up, they just actually haven't built that skill yet.

Gabriel: 27:27

Yeah, well, of course, the way I said it might scare parents who are with children a little bit older, six or seven. When they are older, we have to talk to them a bit more we have to analyze, we have to give it space for exercise again. And the exercise when they're older is to reason is to understand and to ask questions and to investigate. And to make the rules together with us. Sometimes,

Simone Davies: 27:53

I actually even heard a beautiful example of like, elementary children. So that's between six to 12 years old, the pencils were for the classroom left, a bit unkempt, and not really looked after. And so a group of the children researched about pencils and where they came from, and why they should appreciate their pencils. And then how you look after pencils, and what's the best method for storing the pencils. And then they gave a whole presentation to the rest of the class about it. And all of a sudden, the pencils were much more looked after. And it just goes to show the difference in the thinking between the planes of development? Yes,

Gabriel: 28:24

yes, they are not practical at all. But they really, they understand things so deeply if we if we give space and environmental time for that.

Simone Davies: 28:34

Actually, going very back to the very first thing we talked about about setting up the environment. You said like don't just change it overnight. And also that I don't think we need to spend a lot of money on how we set up our environment. But how can we use the environment as parents to make our children feel like part of the family? And what kind of things do you suggest to the parents that you work with?

Gabriel: 28:58

Yeah, so it should be next to free. It shouldn't cost almost anything at all for you to prepare the environment. And we have two options. Basically, either we raise the floor, or we low the ceiling, we have those two options, things have to have to be reachable by the child. So for example, beds are easy. You have to put the cushion maybe on the floor or next to the floor very low, so that the child is able to go to bed when they want to go to bed. And they do not need to ask for our permission to go to bed or to drink water for that matter. They have to be able to eat drink water and sleep whenever they want you without asking us for permission for doing those very basic biological things. Later, we started preparing the rest so For example, the sink in the bathroom, most homes can't low the sink, it has to stay a little bit higher than the child would be able to reach so we can give support for the child. So I think the most important gift we can give a child is a soul for anything, they, they can use that and if your house is small, and if your money is little, you can give this child that's one stone. And they will take it to wherever in the house, they need it. And it's going to be enough in the bathroom in the kitchen, they are going to use it all around to reach stuff. And those things which should not be reachable for the child should be really out of reach. So big knives, for example, should be out of reach for a child that's two years old, it's still very hard for them to understand rules when they are that small. So you can't open this is not always a very good option. Because they will not always understand that it's a rule forever. I mean, it's not that you can't open this, now, you just can't open this, and they are not able to understand that. So it's wiser to take that out of rich. And later in life, when they become able to understand rules, then you can negotiate those rules again, and it's easier. But yeah, we should make the home a place where the child can leave. So they need to be able to wash their hands freely, they need to be able to find their clothes, easily. We don't need to leave all the clothes available for the child, we can have like three or four t shirts available for the child, and the other t shirts are going to be higher somewhere. And we can just change the clothes that are available to the child from time to time. This is the first thing but then we have to help this child to interact with the environment. So we'll have to present things in the same way that when we went to cook a very hard recipe, a new recipe we never tried. We needed a video and a recipe. And we pause the video all the time, because we want to take notes. And we want to understand that very well and practice it and do it many times, the child will do the same for washing her hands. So we need to show very clearly very slowly how to open the water and how to wash hands and how to use soap very slowly, very carefully, very beautifully. In the same way we would like to find a video of a recipe that's very beautiful, we should try to show things to the child in a very beautiful didactic way. And then we have to wait the child when she or he becomes interest. They're going to try it out. And we have to wait. They're going to repeat and until they master it. And when they master they're going to repeat a little bit more. And that's basically how we do it.

Simone Davies: 33:17

It actually reminds me as well of that phrase teach by teaching not by correcting that Dr. Montessori talks about because so often I think I grew up in a very traditional way. And it's so easy to kind of want to step in and say, Oh, no, that's not how you do it. And instead, find another moment where we can show it again. And like every time that we say, you know you got it wrong, it's just another chance for the child to think, Oh, I can't do this anyway. So we kind of end up undoing what we're trying to achieve. But it's I think hard for parents to adults in general to keep this principle of Teach by teaching not by correcting. We know it like when we're giving a language lesson. Oh yeah, I'm not made to say that's a giraffe. I'm going to make a mental note and teach them elephant later on those kind of things. But as I slammed the door, or they don't know how to reach something, we forget to take those moments to teach them.

Gabriel: 34:08

Yeah, we have emotional reactions, immediate emotional reactions. I think that's one thing. We learned at some point in our lives, that slamming a door is offensive. So if I do that, knowing that it's offensive, then it's offensive. But when a small child at three years old, is lemme door, it's not offensive because he or she doesn't know it's offensive. And we should not take offense in an act that is unconscious or ignorant in the best sense of the world word. So that's, that's the first thing to try to not have immediate emotional reactions to what a child does, unknowingly, of the consequences and second, sure, we shouldn't correct we should wait to teach What needs to be taught, but also, sometimes we don't even need to teach. Sometimes we just have to wait a little bit for the child to repeat a bit more. And he or she will learn that without even a lesson or something.

Simone Davies: 35:14

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's so much as traditional focus that we have to teach children, all of this, like, this is yellow, what color is that? And we really have tried to put information into the child and feel this vessel with facts, where if we just provide them with the real world, they're going to want to learn everything about it. Okay, so one thing I found fascinating, when I was looking at your work was the eight principles for silent education. And this was so beautiful, because I'm just gonna quote you, translated from Portuguese into English. It says noisy education is one that everyone around us imposes on us in various ways. Silent education needs to start from within us and gradually take care of our lives and the lives of our children. It requires some effort, but it also opens up new paths for life, paths full of sound, and meaning paths without noise, where everything that really matters can be heard. And I just thought, Wow, it's all education doesn't mean that there's no sound at all. But it's actually having time to process internally and things like that. I never thought about it. So I would love you to share your ideas about silent education with everyone listening,

Gabriel: 36:27

I'm fascinated by silence, I did a two year research on silence, which is a weird topic to be researched. Because, well, because and that's one thing I read a lot in life, that we are able to step into the wilderness of silence. There is a Brazilian research called researcher called in your Landy, she's a professor at one of the biggest universities in Brazil. She works in discourse analysis, and she has a very small book, very interesting book called the forms of silence. And it's not for parents or teachers. It's really nerdy research, thing, linguistics think. But what she says there is that there is a form of silence. That's wild. And language domesticates, the silence. And she's not saying that in an educational way, or in a way for us to practice anything. She's just saying that in an analytical way. But I took that morally. We use language to domesticate silence. Because we are fearful of silence. We don't know what silence will bring. So when a child is silent in another room, after 10 minutes, we feel something is wrong there. And I have to look, because if silent for too long, that means danger. Because silence is wild, we never know what to expect from silence, anything can emerge. So when a child stay silent for a long time, the back of the car, for example, for a long, long, long time. And out of the blue, she says something like, Oh, we call that flower. We have a flower roses, for example, in in, in Brazil, in Brazil, they call that hawza and haws. That means also pink, in Portuguese. So a child may say, Oh, we call them hawza. Because they are hawza. Meaning we call them roses because they are pink. Yeah, in a rough translation. Out of the blue after 15 minutes in silence in the back of the car. Because silence is wild, and you never know what to expect from silence. Unfortunately, we don't do very well with not knowing what to expect. So we use silence sounds all the time we use music we use words we use lessons we interrupt we talk to we do whatever. We just don't want to deal with silence. So even if you go into Montessori classrooms, for example, it's where to find classrooms, which do not use music all the time. And you don't need music all the time. You should have music, of course, now and then, because it's cultural, and it's interesting, but you should also have silence you should have some time for the child's mind to to create to understand to make connections without any kind of input. And of course, silence is not just a lack of sounds. It's lack of input. So you can have visual noise you can have tactile noise, you can have bass to noise, if you have too much of anything that becomes noise. And when I talk about silent education, I do not mean complete absence of input. What I mean is, will give just the input that is very important, and will leave space for the mind to be wired for the mind to create, to imagine to make relations that that's not new. That's actually motorcycles, in other words in order metaphors, so, but that's it.

Simone Davies: 40:38

And I love that you associate silent education with respect and kindness and intimacy and vulnerability. Like those are huge kind of things to have available to our children. Like when we speak in a tone and volume that is required. That's kindness, as opposed to this very loud, too many words,

Gabriel: 41:01

just silence is just the input that you need to give love is very much silent. When we love someone, we are able to be silent together with that person isn't when we don't feel really comfortable with with someone we cannot be silent. With that person, we have to keep talking because silent silence will become weird. In a very short time, we are only able to be silent for a very long time with people with whom we are really intimate. And with a child is speaking in a in a low volume, to speak in as few words as we need to be as concise as we have to count our words. That is kind in the same way. It's kind to not water a plant all day long, you need to put a little bit of water there. And then you have to leave some space for that plant to grow. And it's the same with the child. It's unkind, to force input all the time, we should be together, we should be loving, we should be intimate and vulnerable. We just don't need to give so much all the time. We can allow space and time for the inner wildness of the child to create.

Simone Davies: 42:28

I just wrote down step into the wilderness of silence. Yes, it was so beautiful. Wow. So we're going to take away that we're going to be offer more silence to our children. But let's say that there's a parent who's the opposite to what we do. Or you must get that question all the time. Like they've people have just discovered Montessori, they started adjusting their homes, maybe giving them a bit more space to try things out for themselves discover the world. But then you have a grandparent or a partner who just does not seem to be getting on board,

Gabriel: 42:58

I'll start in a natural place, Park, or a place where you can find trees and grass and maybe even some birds. You go there, you'll get some ice cream. And you let the child play. And you'll just be there together. And when the child plays a little bit by himself or herself, we can make small comments on how much that child enjoys doing things and discovering things. And then forget about it, you make one comment or two comments then that just enjoy the day. Then another day, you are at home, and the child is going to do something her bedroom or take a cup of water in the kitchen. And maybe the other person wants to help or to interrupt or to something. And we can just say Oh, she enjoys that so much. Let her do it and come here and let's set Let's sit and let the child do that because she enjoys that so much. And then another day, she'll do something else that she enjoys so much. We never say the word Montessori never we wait months until we can say the word Montessori. We just talked about the child at the beginning and how she she enjoys that how she is happy to do that or joyful and how she becomes calm when she's able to do such and such. For example, all she enjoys helping me folding laundry. And after we finished she's so calm and joyful. I just let her do it. Come here. Let's do it with us. And then this rent errand can come and fold some and the child will fold some and the mother or the father will fold some and maybe their grandparents went to help the child and we just Let them we let them help once or twice. Because love is more important than independence at first, you don't want to make grandparents think that he or she can't love the child in their way they know how to love. So we have to allow space for love. But then we can ask them to come and drink some coffee with us, or water, or juice, and the child will stay there for doing one more piece of laundry. And we can say, Look, she really likes to do that by herself, doesn't she so strong. And then after some time, we may have been able to show that grandparent or that spouse that the child is is capable to do things and should be respected. Of course, when we would never allow violence. So shouting or heating the child should never be allowed. And if we have to interrupt that we should, but we should not interrupt love. If that person knows how to show love in that way, let that happen. And slowly, we can show another way. And it's fine. If two people show love in two different ways. It's fine if at grandma's house, she has less independence. But from another point of view, Grandpa will take that child to I don't know fish with them or to make a toy out of wood. And that's also interesting. That's also love. That's also important. So I'll be careful to not talk about Montessori. At first, when we first discovered Montessori, all we want to do is talk about motorcycles. And I'll be careful to not do that and talk about the child and to show another way to love.

Simone Davies: 46:51

Thank you. Yeah, I think that's so interesting that you focus on the joy of the child and that they enjoy doing it. But also you've touched on a really important point is that sometimes we get very protective. And then we start closing off our child from things that aren't Montessori where we're missing out on opportunities for them to learn about the world from other people. And actually, Dr. Montessori writes about the child in society. So they're becoming independent and strong, not so that they become more isolated, but so that actually, they can give more to the world.

Gabriel: 47:20

Yeah, we don't want to close opportunities for the child. And some of those opportunities will come in ways we don't agree with. And if they are violent, we should not agree with them, or have space for them. But if they are not violent, we should, we should. Because sometimes, and in contemporary world, that's often children meets on opportunities to learn their heritage, when their parents are, for example, from another country, or or their grandparents are from another country and know other cultures and when to share that in the way they know how to share. That's good for the child and it should be allowed.

Simone Davies: 48:05

And okay, so getting back then, something that I love observing in toddlers is maximum effort, you know, when they need to move, they've learned to walk and now they just don't want to walk, they need to stretch their body and keep challenging themselves. And I love how you see maximum effort. Also through the different stages as an agent, it's not just in toddlerhood, with the physical side, it starts to be that maximum effort of different things. And I thought that's actually a really interesting I hadn't seen it written about before. In that way. I don't know if Dr. Montessori wrote about it herself. But can you talk about how at different stages and ages, children still are trying to actually master things and have maximum effort?

Gabriel: 48:47

Sure. I love maximum effort. Even for adults, it's it's a subject I really adore. We are not used to it. But the idea that you can be allowed to be excellent is very interesting to me. In the school, where I studied and later worked the mortuary school where I studied and worked, there was an environment for excellence. So children were allowed to do everything they were expected to and then a little bit more, as it happens in most monitor environments. And what would happen sometimes when I worked with adolescents, for example, one morning, a girl came to a classroom with a piece of draft paper. And she said I wrote up a whim, she told me this teachers and said okay about and said about corn. I said, What? And she said, Yeah, I bombed about corn. Is it right? And she gave me the poem to read. It was a short one, in which she was able to include every little thing you can learn about corn in middles I was taken aback because she had a really a piece of research to do on corn. And she had not delivered anything yet, like, piece of text or anything. And after a few days, she came with this short poem that included everything. And I read that and I said, You wrote this yourself, right? And she said, Yeah, yeah. Today when I woke up, and I said, Okay, yeah, it's perfect. I said, from the poetry point of view, it has everything, it has rhyme and metrics that it has everything that you try to put in here. She said, she tried to put things in there. And from biological point of view, it's also correct. Yeah, yeah, sure. Do you want to show that to your colleagues? Yeah, I do. And then she showed it to everyone. This can only happen in a environment where where you have maximum effort, because that is not the easiest, or the second or third, easiest thing to do. When you need to make a piece of work on corn, right? To write a text is much easier than to write a poem to make some slides refugees is easier than that. And she did that, because she was allowed to. And I find it fascinating that in children and adolescents, you do not have to impose excellence. Or to say that that's a rule, that's how we do things here, you just have to allow, you must have the environment for it. So for example, if you have a six to 12 years old, child, this child will have to research so you must have a library at their school. It doesn't, doesn't need to be an exhaustive library, the child can go out and research in museums and interview people, but you have a library at school. If you have another lesson, you also have to have the library. But you have to have more than that opportunity to work and to create, you have to go further than that. And this school is not enough anymore. For an older child, you have to go out of school, you have to work with the community and visit places and know other people and interview people who are yardsticks of quality in their fields, so that you You can learn more as an adolescent. But I think first of all, we have to allow excellence to happen. When we as teachers or parents tell the child what we expect from them. We stop allowing excellence to happen. We allow the minimum to happen. I tell the child I needed to do this, this and that. And the child may do this, there's a net. For example, when the child needs to tie tidy the room and I tell the child all you have to throw all the trash away, you have to fold your laundry, and you have to tidy your bed, the child's going to do those three things. But if I got the China set up today, we are all going to type all the house and you are responsible for your bedroom. Make it beautiful, okay, and I go away, the child is going to do much, much more than if I just told those three things need to do. So we can give a little bit we should give example. If we don't model maximum effort in our work in our day to day routine, the child may not do that as well. But if we allow space for that, and time and remodel that it's just beautiful.

Simone Davies: 53:47

Yeah, that is amazing. And I think there's that fine line, that parents might think, Oh, I need excellence for my child. Therefore I'm going to pressure them to become excellent. And it's actually we were so clear that it's not that it's actually removing that to allow the excellence.

Gabriel: 54:01

Excellence is natural. Excellence is the natural. From my point of view. I don't even know if that's mountainside. But from my point of view, excellence is the natural state of the human being who you want to be excellent. Actually, she talks about self perfection in human tendencies. So that's something Yeah, that's more sorry.

Simone Davies: 54:21

I think also another beautiful example about Montessori. And the natural process is learning to read, write, and preparing for literal literacy. So I think a lot of parents are kind of interested if they've got a child in the first plane of development. How can I help my child READ WRITE, and actually, there's a lot very naturally that we can do. And I know that you've put a lot of research into preparing children for literacy, and I'd love you to share some of that.

Gabriel: 54:46

I enjoy that. It happened. almost by accident. I went to work on a mortuary school with three to six children, three to six year old children. And there was a child who was almost six So he had to leave in very few months. And he wasn't able to read or write yet. He came from another school just a few months before that school said he was almost reading and almost writing, he knew almost everything. And I try to do stuff with him. And he didn't. I mean, he didn't know a single letter or sound or how to hold a pencil. So what motivated me to learn that better was this pair, and the head of the school last could meet you, is structured the literacy part of the three to six year old classroom. And then I found Maria dwyers little booklet, the path for the exploration of any language leading to writing and reading, I think. And that really saved me, and that child and some child, some children after him. So the first thing that I tell parents and teachers that we should do is to talk so much with children, talk a lot. And that's not contradiction to the silence thing we just talked about. That's conversation and conversation is very important. And most of the time we talk to children, we do not do that in a spirit of conversation. We do that with orders and prohibitions. So we say do that, don't do this, don't cry, don't climb there. Don't open this, come here, take your something do that. We do not really talk to this children, and we should talk to them. And we should use precise language. But when we talk about an oak, for example, the tree Yeah, we should not say that's the tree, we should say that's an oak tree. So I do that much easier. In Portuguese, I know all the names in Portuguese, but that's what we should do, we should use precise language. If you have, for example, different types of apples, different types of grapes, you can use precise language shoe all of that. For if you are offering bread to a child, you have Italian bread and Australian bread. And you can say that and that's the first thing we should do talk a lot with the child and use precise language. The second thing is music and poetry, music and poetry help a lot because they are the sounds are important in music and poetry. And of course, in Montessori, we are going to use sounds as the basis for everything in literacy. So sounds are very important. And if the child becomes used to rhymes, for example, that helps, that helps a lot. Then after that, if you are giving a lot of vocabulary to that child, if you are giving a lot of sounds through lyrics and rhymes and poetry. After that, it's its activities. So we have for example, I spy in a very special way monitoring settings in which we are going to use the initial sound something like I Spy, something that begins with and the child is going to find what begins with but but only if we already gave them the opportunity of exercising that pronunciation those sounds those rhymes, it's very hard to answer that in a deep enough way in two minute in a podcast, so I'm really sorry, I'm not able to give the whole thing. But I think the most important things we can do as adults is to talk with the child give a lot of precise language, rhymes poetry, songs with lyrics, and Play, play with rains. plays, sounds play play with words. That helps so much.

Simone Davies: 59:09

Yeah, no, that's already very helpful. And also, I think one other aspect that I guess parents could work on is just building hand strength, you know, because they're eventually going to need a utensil too, right. And so to have some control over their bodies is also something that can be refined, because there's so much indirect preparation for writing and reading that happens with a child from zero to three, who's not actually going to be interested in reading words. But learning to track the page from left to right with a ball tracker. Holding on to playdough or squeezing a bath toy gives them a lot of hand strength, and they're going to be able to hold scissors and cut hold a pencil and write that that's I think they're really helpful because I think parents we get caught up on teaching them to read when there's so much groundwork that we can lay that it almost becomes like you say this natural process where children want to challenge themselves. And it will happen.

Gabriel: 1:00:01

Sure when. So there is this thing in multisided. That's the cosmic vision of Dr. Montessori. So for the child from six to 12, and we start from general things, and we go to details later, it's exactly the same in the body. If I want the three fingers of the right or left hand of the child to be able to hold the pencil and write, I have to start with the whole body. And the whole body has to be able to exercise and be strong. It's interesting if I really adore calligraphy, artistic calligraphy. And if you look at Handbook of calligraphy, the first stuff they teach you are not how to hold the quill, that's not the first thing they teach you. The first thing they teach you is how to sit, how to put your body upright, how to position your arm and your hand. And just after you did all of that, okay, now we can write. And we forget about all of this with the child and we just go to that fingertips and fingertips are not enough for us to be able to write, we need the whole body to be able to write. So yeah, children should be strong, they should be able to climb places, they should be able to carry heavy stuff, they should be able to move their arms and legs in ways that are productive to their and the ends they have in in view. And also their fingertips. So later, we can go for example, to wash dishes, and you can watch very small stuff. And you need to move your little finger around the cap so that you can wash the cap and you have to move your little finger in order to be able to button your shirt, and then your fingertips. But first whole body strength, whole body control and movement and so on pressure.

Simone Davies: 1:02:08

Yeah. I'm actually speaking of bodies. It reminds me of my body my rules, that Montessori principle that don't touch a child, unless you're invited to in any way. And I know that parents are quite surprised if they've never been in touch with the Montessori approach. Do you know, oh, give me a cuddle, or I'm going to I don't even say I'm going to take your coat off, they just start taking their coat off. Referring back to when we were talking about blowing our noses. We don't even tell the child we're going to blow their nose and from behind we take a tissue and we wonder why the child struggling. But about consent, you know, this is something in Brazil, is this a common thing? Or is this something we need to teach parents and adults?

Gabriel: 1:02:50

We need to learn that Yeah, for sure. Children's bodies are public, usually public in the sense that anyone can touch them. And years later, we find it strange that adults are not going to respect other people's bodies, their private, as private. And it's not strange at all. We taught those adults when they were children, that there are some bodies which are public. And it's interesting the way that children learn that isn't it because when you make a child's body public, when that child becomes an adult, this adult is not going to think only that children's bodies are public, they are going to think that there are bodies which are public. And those bodies can be children's bodies, they can also be women's bodies, black people's bodies, those bodies of the oppressed, because the child is a is an oppressed class. So those bodies of the oppressed are public. And then we have all this problems with consent that we have in the adult role. It begins that at birth, it begins at infancy. And one side it tells that she was when she talks about the seeds of war. And she says that war begins in the relationship between adult and child. oppression also begins there. And respecting the privacy of a body is one of the ways to not oppress a child to liberate a child. So we should not touch a child that doesn't want to be touched. Unless of course there is an emergency if that child is, I don't know, falling from somewhere very high. Nevermind, you just read the child but in any other circumstances, we should not touch the child. As if the child could not be offended because the child can be offended. And we can ask, we can watch for body language. Because permission does not always come through language. We don't say to our partner, okay, now kiss me, we don't say that we show it through body language, that that is an appropriate moment for physical intimacy. And the child does the same thing. There are moments when we know the child wants to be cuddled, but there are body language there is there is language itself. And when we want to do something, which the child didn't ask for, and we need to do something with the child, the least we can do is to tell them, we are going to do that. That's the minimum, at the best we would ask, we would say Excuse me, can I, but the least we can do is to tell them, okay, now I'm going to brush your hair, for example, or something like that. But we should ask. And if the child becomes more independent, then we have to do less and less of this necessary touching. And we stay with the emotional touching, which always has to happen with the child allowing it to happen.

Simone Davies: 1:06:32

Gabriel, thank you, you've given us so many ideas of things that we can do to become better parents that are adults working with these lovely children who we will treat with enormous dignity and respect. And I'd love to come back full circle, we talked about your love of research, we touched on literacy. And I read recently you wrote in books are the most generous objects in the world. And in that you also wrote books have patience, wait years until we're ready. And when we finally are they open up full of delivery, so that a little piece of the world can fit inside us. And so I just wanted to end maybe with you talking about your love of books,

Gabriel: 1:07:11

thank you for this. I do love books, most of what I learned, I learned from books, most of them most of the most intense emotions I had in life I had with books. And I'm forever grateful to my trainers, and to my teachers and work colleagues. But really, I never had better teachers than books, because they are really patient. We can feel terribly stupid when reading a book. And the book will not judge us. We can just feel stupid, close the book a little bit, drink a little bit of water, come back to it. We can cry over a book and the book is there. And we can laugh over a book in the books there. And the author never gets offended. I mean, the author is really far away. So that's fine. If I had to have a conversation like this with Dr. Montessori. Come on. I never would. I never would I'll sit and listen. But when you have a book, you can write on it really, I doubt that need to investigate. And that's fine. So I do think books are fascinating. And I think we should give them to give the opportunity of filling this to other people. So that's why I went into motorcycling really. I was a teacher of grammar and literature for adolescence. They were not very good readers. They were they were pretty terrible readers at the time, we began working together. And they went into Missouri to find ways to help them to become better readers. And when I went to work in the first month, sorry, schoolwide work that I was hired as a reading teacher. I mean, I was there to try and help the children to fall in love with books. And it's interesting that once I got a girl, she was 10 years old or 11. And I asked her the first day of school, I asked her Do you like reading? And she said no. I said not even a little. No, I hate it. And you could feel the impatience in her voice. And I said, Okay, you have to read that that's necessary. But I can find something interesting for you. What movies do you enjoy? And she said all her movies. I said, Okay, so she was an 11 year old who already loved all her movies. So I had to find an all her book for her to read. And I asked her to read like a paragraph. To read that very slowly, and she couldn't understand three words in a sequence. So I said, Okay, I have to find a normal book for 11 year old, with as few words as possible. And we had immense library in the classroom. We had 3200 books in the classroom. So I could find that there was this book for her, there was actually a whole collection of these books for her. And she read one after the other. She had two weeks to give the book back. She read each in three days. And when she finished all of them, she said, I finished it and I, and I said, Yeah, you did. Oh, that's a pity. And I said, Yeah, it's a pity, but I have something else for you. And then I tried to keep her interested. And after six months, we went to a day trip somewhere. It's where it was a water purifying place we were going to visit. And she was hugging a book in the bus. While we were going there, she was inside the book, reading. And while we came back, she was inside the book, reading, not talking to anyone just reading so much. She talked to her colleagues all the time. But that moment, she was really, really. And when we arrived at school, after the day trip, she was hugging the book. And she stopped by me. And she said, Gabriel, do you remember that when I started in this school? I hated reading and study? Yes, I do, remember? And she said, Oh, now I love it. And she just kept walking. So it's completely possible to in six months change the relationship a person has with books. And we have to try because they are the best thing we did. As human beings, I think.

Simone Davies: 1:11:52

Well, I know that everyone will want to find out more about you everyone. Check out Lar Montessori in Brazil. Gabriel I've learned so much just from our conversation every time we speak and working together with you. On monster everywhere has been a delight. And thank you so much for your time today. Is there anything that you didn't get to say that you'd like to share with us?

Gabriel: 1:12:14

If every small thing? Yes, thank you for inviting me to this podcast. much earlier than then I know you personally, working together with Mozart everywhere. And so when I admired your work, I watched your videos at Monterey notebook. And when I went to Amsterdam, I bought your book immediately. It was the first book I bought when I got there. So for me, it's really an honor and a pleasure to be here. You can imagine how much this means to me. So thank you very much.

Simone Davies: 1:12:46

Oh, I'm sorry, touched. Thank you, Gabriel. So interesting. I know I'm going to be thinking a lot more about silent education after that conversation. So I'll put the links to Lar Montessori in the show notes which you can find over at the Montessori notebook calm and click on the podcast step. And now it's time for today's listener question. Today's question is from Heidi. My question is regarding my spouse, he tells me to lead the way indicating that he wants me to learn all I can to incorporate Montessori principles at home. He's supportive in my research, but rarely listens to parts of your podcast that I share, or reads blog posts that I recommend for him. He often interrupts her daughter's activities that I spend time planning or constantly quizzes her to see what she has learned. He's well intentioned and loves her so much. How do I gently guide him or really guide all of our family to let her lead and stop interrupting her are constantly asking her questions. Thank you so much for helping me in this situation. Yeah, well, I think that Gabriel answered this already so beautifully, early in the episode, like not necessarily jumping in with a lot of information, but pointing out how much the child is enjoying being able to do things for themselves. And that it's a gradual process, like not expecting them to pick it up all in one day. It does take time. So it depends also how much they already know. Like, if they don't already know these kind of principles, like not interrupting the child or not quizzing the child all the time. I love telling stories like about what I was doing with the child and saying, and I was so tempted to step in. And then what I did was, and they, they worked it out a little by themselves. And so you're kind of taking them on your journey with them. Or that you tell them how the child has been so busy naming things and showing you what they know. And that you found it so much more relaxing, not quizzing them all the time or you realize that when we say, oh, what color is this? or What sound does that make? It's a bit like that you're testing them all the time and wanting to make them learn faster or something. Or even maybe just having the conversation like why do we do that anyway? Because when you ask parents like why do we say white colors is what color is that we actually go Oh, I know. Actually, no, it's just kind of like how we were brought up, I think. And they're learning so much anyway without all these quizzing, and it's so much more fun to, like, learn alongside them. I love like, yeah, I wonder what sound it makes? Yeah, I heard it too. You know, and then the child's likely to say, quack, quack quack along with you. So I really think that modeling is the best thing that we can do to keep showing them that there's a different way. And that's a lot of what we do as Montessori guides. And I guess, also to be careful that we're not judging them, because likely, your partner also wants to feel like they're doing a good job. And often, we're only telling them when they get it wrong. And also family, they might also feel like we're judging them in some way when we say, oh, let's do it this way. Because then they might think, oh, weren't you grateful for the way that you were raised. And a sibling who's raising their children a different way might think that we're judging the way that they parent and everyone's doing the best they can with the information that they have. And we also need to remember, I think that they're going to have their own relationship with the child. So we hope that they are open to getting on the same page about the big things like I think it's important, you agree on bedtime, or timeouts, if you're not going to do that, and those kind of things. But then let them get on and parents the way that they're going to parent, like let them do the activity in the way that they want to do it. And so just as we don't want to control the child, we don't want to end up controlling our partner. And I mentioned back in the beginning of this season in Episode One, that we need to be so careful to not like should on the other adults in our lives, because we're trying not to interfere with the child. And then we start interfering with our partner and others in our lives. So again, something to think about. Another thing I like to do is to think about what kind of way might be interesting for them to listen. So you said maybe not blog posts or podcasts. But someone might be interested in the research or someone that you know, from work who they like it has, you've studied using one story, and you can talk about them as an example. Someone might listen to an audio book, and another person might read a short article. So I kind of like to say it's a drip drip drip method. Again, they're not picking things up straight away. So you can just give them a little bits of information over time. Also, like look for examples that would appeal to your partner. So like one Instagram account that comes to mind is Do you know what dad did? Ashton is a super fun dad from Dominica. And they use Montessori principles with their daughter. And not only is he super inspiring, he and his partner are deaf, and I love learning from him. And so I'll link his account in the show notes because he might be someone like that that might be more relatable for your partner. Definitely, we need to pick our moments. And this is not something that I am great at at all. But you could say like, Oh, I'd love to tell you about something I just learned about Montessori, like when would be a good time. And then when you actually make that time, you could actually also give them time to maybe tell you about something that they're interested in as well. And the last thing I think I would add is that I once heard an interview with a father who had like something like eight children, and once a weekend sit down with his partner. And they're talking about what each of their children needed right now. And he wasn't watching Sorry, but I couldn't think of anything more Montessori in looking at each child and seeing what their needs were, and if there was anything that we could be doing to support them in the coming week. So that might be something interesting that your partner might be open to doing. That might be another way to start Montessori in your house. So that's it for today. I'll be back next Friday with another episode of the podcast. And if you're listening to this episode when it drops, keep the 11th of may free. Because Jennifer and I are hosting a zoo book launch party for the Montessori baby book which comes out on that day. The Zoom party is going to be completely free to join and we just want to celebrate his birth with you all as we can't be doing it in person at the moment with any book events. So this will be the next best thing hanging out with you all in your living rooms right. And the lovely Dr. eezs Aveda of the black Montessori Education Fund has agreed to be the host and it's going to be a fun and cozy chat and a bit of a behind the scenes look at the making of the book and answering your questions. So we hope you can join us on the 11th of May. That would be amazing. So goodbye for now everyone, and I'll see you on podcast next Friday. Thanks for joining me for the Montessori notebook podcast. The podcast was edited by Luke Davis from film Bravo media and podcasts are by here. To find out more about me and my online courses visit the Montessori notebook comm follow me on Instagram at the Montessori notebook for pick up a copy of my book The Montessori toddler for its new pre call the Montessori baby from your local bookstore, Amazon or where books are sold. They're also available as ebooks, audio books and are being translated into over 20 languages. I'll be back in a week with more monitoring inspiration. And in the meantime, perhaps you'll join me in spreading some more peace and positivity around the world.